Horizon deliberately set out to deceive

Problems, experiences or just something to say about RC gear? Say it here.

Horizon deliberately set out to deceive

Postby RCModelReviews » Sun May 30, 2010 5:10 am

You can comment on this article right here.

Is Horizon engaging in "dirty tricks" to make their product look as good as Futaba's when it comes to low-voltage performance?

What does this say about Horizon's confidence in the Spektrum product when they feel it necessary to resort to this level of deception to try and play-down a weakness in their own product?

What do you think?
RCModelReviews.com, just the facts.
User avatar
RCModelReviews
 
Posts: 2120
Joined: Tue May 04, 2010 3:40 am

Re: Horizon deliberately set out to deceive

Postby sturdybird46 » Sun May 30, 2010 8:59 am

Excellent observation Bruce. This video is a bunch of bull. Is anyone going to run their equipment below 3 volts? hopefully not. I do have to wonder about Horizon's technical staff. I sent a JR9503 to Horizon for a simple firmware upgrade. It came back with paperwork stating that it had been updated and tested with no failures. I took the transmitter out for a flight and my model crashed due to a lock out. What was the problem? After opening the transmitter I found the U.FL antenna connector just hanging there. If Horizon really wants to put their equipment up to the test, let them send some samples to rcmodelreviews.com.
sturdybird46
 
Posts: 9
Joined: Mon May 10, 2010 4:17 am

Re: Horizon deliberately set out to deceive

Postby Captain351 » Sun May 30, 2010 5:31 pm

I'm no friend of any Manufacturer except maybe Castle Creations but I don't really think that was intentional. If they were really trying to mislead they wouldn't have made a point of saying that they were digital servos. I really believe they are just stupid and don't really understand their own products. Either that or they think their customers are complete morons I just can't think that they could expect to get away with with a deception this obvious. I will say that whoever approved this video for released to the internet should be fired for incompetence.

Anybody with any understanding of electronics should be able to see the flaws in this test.

1. Digital servo's have there own power requirements and since they appeared to be 2 of the same servo's they will obviously quit at the same time!
2. You wouldn't need a feature that shows when you have a brownout if your product wasn't prone to them.
3. If Futaba had such a feature it wouldn't have shown it because it never browned out.
4. The Futaba receiver was slower to reboot but that was only when shutting off the power with the switch. When he turned the power back up over 3.0V the Futaba was quicker because it never browned out and didn't have to reboot.

This does point out that if you use digital servos in you model then it really doesn't matter what voltage your receiver shuts off because the servo's will probably shut off first. So at least we can thank them for making that point however unintentional.

Captain
Captain351
 
Posts: 21
Joined: Wed May 12, 2010 11:53 pm

Re: Horizon deliberately set out to deceive

Postby RCModelReviews » Sun May 30, 2010 8:14 pm

Yes, all Horizon had to do to prove their case was make the emphasis:

1. if you use (that brand of) digital servos, they will be the weakest link in a brownout situation (some older Hitec
digitals actually took nearly a second to reboot after a brownout).

2. even if your servos (digital or otherwise) *are* working at 3V, they will have so little torque as to be useless anyway.

3. the reboot time of the Spektrum is now so good as to no longer be an issue

4. Spektrum actually logs the fact that the power has failed.

Instead, they chose to try and imply that a competitors product was no better than theirs in an area (brownout voltage) where it clearly is.

So, what could have been a worthy promotional video leaves the company looking deceptive and untrustworthy.

That's a shame.
RCModelReviews.com, just the facts.
User avatar
RCModelReviews
 
Posts: 2120
Joined: Tue May 04, 2010 3:40 am

Re: Horizon deliberately set out to deceive

Postby fernandez » Mon May 31, 2010 8:18 pm

I think that brownout lowvoltage tests are only part of the problem.

It is not only how low voltage can go the receiver, but it also it's ability to handle power loss, how long can the receiver stay locked when input voltage is 0V (time in ms.) The main importance is the receiver should have a proper buffer capacitor over the RX chipset. Digital servos and speedcontrols are switching devices, they generate current peaks and ac on the power lines especially the cheaper ones can give dirt on the lines. Also locked servo's can also give very short spikes.

How does power circuit for the chipset in the receiver work:
Mostly receiver chipset are protected for reverse polarisation > diode in serie (or possible resistor in serie, diode to ground) > than there is a low drop regulator or a resistor and zener diode, feeding the chipset with stable 3V3 or lower. (When going below 3v3 normally it still works, depending on chipset in some case down to 2v))
Then there is a capacitor. This is were most receivers lack, most receivers use very small capacity buffer capacitor. Most of time SMT Tantal capcitor 10Uf or so. Quality capacitors are expensive and big in size. A small capacitor can indeed filter away some high frequency noises, but it does not act as a proper buffer.

I recommend all manufacturars to integrate a goldcap or so called supercap, memory capacitor, they act as a small battery inside the receiver and are able to power the receiver even down to 0V, for short period of time. From my experience a 0.1F Goldcap give more than 1 second on my flydream after removal of power

There are many types, fo example this is one;
http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSea ... =P10791-ND

For instance Flydream and some other manufacturar, provide a big capacitor to plug into one of the servo channels, this is not a good solution. It will indeed remove the ripples from a bad bec, esc or servo. But high currents burst coming from agrassive servo movement (servo overload), will be also powered from the capacitor. So capacitor in parallel with battery power and servo's will not secure power for the chipset. The goldcap capacitors are also many times smaller, but have muc and much higher capacity.

Another point that I don't like most RX have a small range on input voltage, as RX chipset consume very little of power, it is not that difficult to make them accepting wide range of input voltage F.I. 16V - 3V, often they are limeted to 6V.

Maybe RC modelreviews can give it as a recommandation and push market forward..........
fernandez
 
Posts: 7
Joined: Sat May 29, 2010 5:55 pm

Re: Horizon deliberately set out to deceive

Postby RCModelReviews » Mon May 31, 2010 9:46 pm

The only problem with placing a decent sized capacitor on the output side of the receiver's voltage regulator is that it can cause the regulator to be damaged or temporarily shut down when it's called upon to provide the high current transient needed to recharge that capacitor when first turned on or after a momentary voltage drop on the input.

The SMT regulators used in most regulators have a very limited peak-current capability and if you use a cap that's too big, you're likely to toast that regulator or even slow the reboot time by forcing the regulator into current-limit mode while it's trying to recharge the cap (thus increasing the time it takes for the regulator output voltage to return to normal).

The real secret to reliable performance is to use a decent battery or regulator.

I use A123 packs in all my models except my electrics. They've never let me down (yet).

On electrics you should *never* underestimate the amount of current your servos might draw -- always allow at least a 50% margin of safety.
RCModelReviews.com, just the facts.
User avatar
RCModelReviews
 
Posts: 2120
Joined: Tue May 04, 2010 3:40 am

Re: Horizon deliberately set out to deceive

Postby DougV » Tue Jun 01, 2010 12:27 am

One more thing about that test, the presenter is very proud that his new AR7000 (with the latest firmware) receiver boots up faster than that old discontinue R606FS FASST receiver. Well, one of the reasons why that R606FS rx was discountinued was because of a 1 second delay. He should have done an apples to apples comparison and use the R617FS receiver instead? but I guess i know why he didn't do that.

JMO,
Doug.
DougV
 
Posts: 2
Joined: Fri May 07, 2010 10:57 am

Re: Horizon deliberately set out to deceive

Postby fernandez » Tue Jun 01, 2010 2:22 pm

I don't think it is of any problem, you will not damage the regulator, all modern regulator are current limited. Also it is possible to put a resistor in series to restrict the max current, when powering on. As the cap is isolated from main power, it cannot be emptied by the servo's or any battery or shortcut behind and only powers the chipset, wich consumes only few mili amp, the resitor is not of any problem.

So you test the continuous minimum operating voltage, but minimum operating voltage for short period can be much improved, very easily.

Some brands allready use this setup and buffer capacitor. And I succesfully use it with my flydream, as I do not like big cap over servo connectors and because it simply is not proper solution.
fernandez
 
Posts: 7
Joined: Sat May 29, 2010 5:55 pm

Re: Horizon deliberately set out to deceive

Postby RCModelReviews » Wed Jun 02, 2010 10:39 pm

It is interesting to read the feedback on my article that's appearing on other (sponsored) forum websites such as FlyingGiants and RCU.

BTW: anyone notice that there is *NO* mention or discussion of the new Orange Rx receivers on RCU? I wonder why that is :roll:

It seems that (according to those who are unwilling to acknowledge the deceptiveness of Horizon's video) I'm simply pushing to get some "free stuff". (they seem to ignore that *I* don't keep any of the "free stuff" even if it's sent to me.

I note also that they don't come to these forums (where everyone's free to voice their opinion without pressure from advertisers) and make those claims.

It would appear that for many, the easiest way to defend the indefensible is to attack anyone who dares cast a light on such deceptive practices. C'est la vie!
RCModelReviews.com, just the facts.
User avatar
RCModelReviews
 
Posts: 2120
Joined: Tue May 04, 2010 3:40 am

Re: Horizon deliberately set out to deceive

Postby rcflyn4fun » Sun Jun 06, 2010 12:13 am

Looks like they were listening. They have removed the video from you tube now. What a bunch of crap. Betchya don't hear from them either :twisted:
User avatar
rcflyn4fun
 
Posts: 2
Joined: Sun Jun 06, 2010 12:08 am
Location: Colo, IA USA

Next

Return to Radios and Servos

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

cron